How was the creator "created"?

[Pat]

I honestly think what is needed to explain the 'origin' of the universe is a concrete and comprehensive (if thats possible) understanding of the nature of time. We don't know exactly how it behaves. We know funky stuff happens in the presence of mass/energy. We know there is also funny stuff going on at high velocities as well.

What we don't know is how time behaves inside a black hole, or in the incredibly dense early universe. We don't know how it behaves at the Planck (quantum/10 to the -47 seconds) scale either. There are theories that 'time' may be comprised of two dimensions running in opposite directions. Time may be infinite in both the forwards and backwards sense. We just dont know.

If we do work this out, the answer as to whether or not a creator exists, or even if there is room for one, may  in fact be trivial.

[StupidUglyHead]

The creator was created like Voltron. Lesser gods all joined into one, and in some cases are considered to be three separate gods whilst being one god.

[TheFluffyDuck]

I honestly think what is needed to explain the 'origin' of the universe is a concrete and comprehensive (if thats possible) understanding of the nature of time. We don't know exactly how it behaves. We know funky stuff happens in the presence of mass/energy. We know there is also funny stuff going on at high velocities as well.

What we don't know is how time behaves inside a black hole, or in the incredibly dense early universe. We don't know how it behaves at the Planck (quantum/10 to the -47 seconds) scale either. There are theories that 'time' may be comprised of two dimensions running in opposite directions. Time may be infinite in both the forwards and backwards sense. We just dont know.

If we do work this out, the answer as to whether or not a creator exists, or even if there is room for one, may  in fact be trivial.

Unfortunately that doesn't matter.
Do you honestly think these "logical" people who respect evidence, theory and the scientific method are going to be swayed?

I mean they struggle with evolution. They even stuggle with rudimentary Psychology, thermo dynamics and gravity even. What makes you think another "theory" backed up by "mans evidence" is going to change their mind this time around?

Here is the general Rule of thumb. If its about nature and the bible doesn't cover it, they are fine with it. If it is already covered in the bible the science is wrong.

Look they are just going to come back with  "well who made those laws".   Finally after millenia of hiding ther Gods in real places like under the earth, clouds and "behind the stars". They have achieved the next level of obsurdaity  "Outside of time".  How do you refute that?  I mean its so obviously childish fallacious A.K.A  fucking wrong.

I mean just today I had a religious person Lecture ME on time?!?!  Claiming that that gods time is diffrent.  I felt like punching them. They are so fucking arrogant in their ignorance they shouldnt be aloud to live. Sorry its true.

Apart from the street preacher there was this woman, she was drug addict that was "saved". She never had a a proper education. Who when I was trying to give an example of how she was an atheist of mythical things too like Dragons and Unicorns, actually replide saying they existed.  I had to use fucking Pixies as my example. Pixies people. Thats three layers deep of mythical creatures I had to go through, to find somtheing she didnt belive in.  Even then the example flew over her and the street preachers Head.
They she was lecturing ME on time? I asked her what gravitational lensing, time dialation and entanglement was and she said "yep, but I dont need to becasue the true answer is god and he does things in his own time, outside of time".
How do they have the right to lecture me how the universe is? But Im not allowed to coment on their wild claims about "outside" the universe?
Them self ploclaimng they only need "One book" when I have read well over a hudred on a douzen subjects.

Lets see their one book cure a heart attack. Lets see their one book give us knowledge to make an iPhone, go to the moon. Create the very concrete they were standing on. The Printing press used to make the bible?  Where is the math an science for that in the bible? 

Oh but if they break an arm or have an overdose they will be VERY happy to accept knowledge from another book to save their life. Blood hypocrites. It makes my blood boil.

How can anybody live with just "god did it". It makes me angry, sad, depressed, amazed, hopeless, enraged, frustrated and alone, when I here shit like this. Are atheists the next step or are we dying out because being arrogantly gullible has some kind of evolutionary advantage?

I dont suffer fools well. I am intolerant of others beliefs, Fuck it I am. So what? If there is no evidence for a claim or the claim is a logical fallacy, society shouldn't tolerate it or make excptions. PERIOD!  None of this bigot name calling bullshit. IF it doesnt stand in peer review or is repeatable etc. Why then do we WORSHIP IGNORENCE in this society? I feel like I am the only sane person left on earth.

You should have the right to free speech.
YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEBODY THEY ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.
Its amazingly ironic how many people will lecture you on free speech in order to stop your from debating religion. 

Doesn't anybody find this whole thing Fucking absurd? 

Sorry about my rant im a little angry today. Thank you for listening.

[Perillux]

There is hope for us my friend:
http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/01542/atheist/is-america-approaching-a-golden-age-of-atheism/

[Pat]

@FluffyDuck:

I totally understand where you are coming from. But scientific advances aren't for the ignorant. These advances are not for the dye-in-the-wool young earth creationists or the intelligent design advocates.

They are advances for that part of humanity that wants to learn more, to understand things and to answer the big question about where we come from with EVIDENCE.

Over time, people learn. Today, pretty much everyone accepts that we are not at the centre of the universe. That the earth is round. That stars are hot balls of hydrogen-helium plasma. The same time will come for evolution, for the big bang or whatever demonstrable theories succeed them.

Don't be fooled by the voracity and energy displayed by the religious right wing and ultra conservatives. Their numbers are dwindling. Their power has consistently decreased since the Reannaissance. They are afraid because their philopsophy is being disproven, and they are loud about it because they are afraid.

There will always be fairytales and adherents to them, this much is true. But there is so much room in the world now to do research without their interference on fundamental questions such as the nature of space, time, gravity, mass, the quantum level and the origin of the universe.

But in any case, we are a transient species. We will go extinct. Time will move on and even though we might figure it all out there is not going to be anything we can do to preserve our knowledge for some greater purpose. I say we get cracking on AI.

[wayzey]

fluffy you are completly right.

Techincally time does not exist.  Time is just a human creation used to organize events, it is based on when the sun comes up and goes down, do you really think the universe runs on a timeline? No, it runs freely, nothing can just happen unexpectedly, there must always be a logical explaination for something to be true.

Most people think when we think we have some sort of organized harddrive in our brains.  Actually, every time we think we look back on hundreds of billions of memories until the right one is found, this is done in less then a millisecond and is done every time we do anything, even the smallest of things like talking, for each word and letter you mind does this.

Now you may think we are on a timeline but really time is what we humans have created, the only thing that is in our universe but is not a human creation is space.  We organized this space but if this organization is changed then space itself isn't.  The laws of space and everything that determines what happens in this space is determined by the elements in this space and how they react with other elements.  It's kinda hard to explain but I hope at least half of you understand what i'm talking about, the other half will probably argue that time is true and that we created space and other shit like that.  If you are in that 50% then you are closed minded or just not intellegent enough to understand my point.

[Pat]

You can define time according to thermodynamics or causality though.

[wayzey]

yes but there is no phisical law that is time, space is the one thing in existance and the laws of physics are what decides what happens in this space, none of these laws are time so time does not decide what happens inside this space, time is just used to aid the research of humans, without humans there would be no time but without humans there would still be gravity.  Do you understand?

[TheFluffyDuck]

Wayzey Im not to sure what your getting at but this is what I think your trying to explain. 

There are the physcial laws of time which does crazy stuff wtih gravity and high speeds and even weirder shit in  quantum mechanics and just bat shit crazy shit in m/string theory.

Then there is how human beings see time. Boring, one direction with no beggining or end. We  Evolved this just to make do with an explanation that is only equiped with hunting mamoths. Its flawed understanding that only a few recognise as flawed. But yet many feel the need to lecture to us about the philosphy of time from personal experiance. This is of course a crude waste of time, as observation, science and mathamatics is the only way to discover the secrete of time.

But I agree the universe is a weird and beautiful place, which humans are only just understanding. It is far more fascinating and humbling than any number of 2000 year old desert scribblings you care to threaten me with.

[StupidUglyHead]

I believe similarly. That stupid wormhole graph drawing always pissed me off, as if time is an actual physical dimension of our universe. Yeah, the universe is constantly checking it's watch to make sure we're keeping schedule with our orbit. Stupid. It would be simple for the universe to be eternal if eternity was just a construct we require to make sense of our human experience. Yeah but look at the bend of objects at the horizon of astral bodies. Der. The moon also look really big when tangential to our view of earth's horizon.

I don't get all the mass-time theories. Things-physical objects- accelerate the more gravitational pull they are influenced by, and therefor we perceive it as accelerating in time. I'm no physics expert, though, but it doesn't make sense that the universe is bound by our concept of time.

That wormhole graph sure looks like a tasty pastry though.

[Perillux]

Techincally time does not exist.

This is very likely true about the usual concepts of time.  But you should not make this generalization.
Because, if all there is is just space and nothing else, then why is everything moving.  Why don't things just stand still.  Maybe time is simply the agent of change.
you make a lot of bold claims like this wayzey, I would advise you to be cautious about doing that in the future.  Your concept (and indeed many people share it) might be an invention of humans, but other concepts of time are not necessarily man made.
Anyway, your claim is nothing new.  It has always been a possibility.

But, we use space in 3 dimensions right?  but it's not like there is actually 3 axis going through our universe.  We apply an axis as we see fit for certain situations to help us analyze.  We do the same thing with time so we can analyze change.

But evidence of time is that all similar physical processes tend to take the same amount of time to complete  If there was no such thing as time then imagine an explosion that normally takes seconds to complete what's to stop me from repeating the experiment and the next time the explosion takes 10years.  Similarly what's to stop the entire universe from playing out it's life from big bang to the end of the universe in the blink of an eye.  Something is regulating change, and we call this time.
Another thought is maybe the universe does live out it's "life" instantly, do you think we would notice?  No, to us it would still appear to move along at the same rate provided that "time" keeps things consistent.  In this case time is what we observe it to be.
No one knows the true nature of time, so it is ignorant to claim that time does not exist.

[TAC]

Techincally time does not exist.

This is very likely true about the usual concepts of time.  But you should not make this generalization.
Because, if all there is is just space and nothing else, then why is everything moving.  Why don't things just stand still.  Maybe time is simply the agent of change.
you make a lot of bold claims like this wayzey, I would advise you to be cautious about doing that in the future.  Your concept (and indeed many people share it) might be an invention of humans, but other concepts of time are not necessarily man made.
Anyway, your claim is nothing new.  It has always been a possibility.

perillux you are very well correct time is the agent of change, we know of 4 dimensions and time is one of em, the way it is set up the 3 dimensions are standing still but when you add time it moves

[StupidUglyHead]

Why don't things just stand still.  Maybe time is simply the agent of change.

God of the gaps, kinda.

but other concepts of time are not necessarily man made.

This I agree with. The concepts are important to our human existence. So is marketing strategies. It doesn't mean either are an actual dimension or force.

We apply an axis as we see fit for certain situations to help us analyze.

We do indeed apply it to make sense of our human experience, and evolution has programmed all of us to do so. Our circadian rythms are fixated to the day/night cycle. Jet lag shows this.

But evidence of time is that all similar physical processes tend to take the same amount of time to complete

Circular argument.

Something is regulating change, and we call this time.

Something created us, and we call it god. Doesn't mean its real.

No, to us it would still appear to move along at the same rate provided that "time" keeps things consistent.

This is based on your god of the gaps assumption.

No one knows the true nature of time, so it is ignorant to claim that time does not exist.

It's not ignorant, it's a matter of syntax.

My favorite thought experiment for pondering time is imagining the edge of the universe, where it goes from containing quantum matter to having drastically spaced out matter, to no particles at all.

We definitely observe change, and that's true. Consistent change allows us to make clocks and calendars, and therefor is the impetitous for human industry. Time is the rate at which we observe change. But it is a pretend description of the way quantum matter and particles interact. You MUST make certain that you build your concept of the universe from the ground up, not the top down.

time is the agent of change, we know of 4 dimensions and time is one of em, the way it is set up the 3 dimensions are standing still but when you add time it moves

Aw come on buddy, "the way it is set up"? I only expect to hear that from creationists.

[Pat]

yes but there is no phisical law that is time, space is the one thing in existance and the laws of physics are what decides what happens in this space, none of these laws are time so time does not decide what happens inside this space, time is just used to aid the research of humans, without humans there would be no time but without humans there would still be gravity.  Do you understand?

You are right in that there is no physical law to speak of that describes what time is. That does not mean it does not "exist" (damn I hate using that phrase!) and this is why: Experiment has shown that 'time' passes differently to different observers in different reference frames, be it due to the presence of mass or their speed. You have heard of the muon decay experiment? The clocks on planes going around the world in different directions?

The actual nature of space, in 3 dimensions, has been characterised extremely well by general relativity (though by no means is this the complete story). But the geometry of space is not static in two ways:

1) It is not static with respect to location. That is to say that space curvature increases the close you get to an object with mass/energy.

2) It is not static with repsect to (relative) movement of objects.

It may well be that time needs a better description than what we have currently. Theoretical physicists have identified it as a fundamental concept that requires a radical rethink. As it is at present, time is just another independant dimension.

[StupidUglyHead]

Time "exists" in the sense that free will exists. The universe itself does not care that it's 4:20pm on earth, but you're damn right about what it means to stoners. The universe itself doesn't care whether we decide to be lazy or ambitious, but it has huge effects on society. So it exists for us, within human experience.

Pat, I don't understand what the curvature of space due to massive objects or the movement of objects has to do with time. I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that both can be explained by physics, wave forms and particle forms, which DO have a rate which changes according to physical laws.

It *seems* like magical thinking that the quantum signatures (is that a real term?) of an object could be moved forward or backward in the objective state of the universe. If it did, would it really be a change in "time"? Or would it just be a complicated quantum process? It seems like saying that it was some form of time travel would only be describing what we perceive within our human experience.

[Church_of_STFU]

I don't think it makes sense to talk of the probability or imporability of God's existence. Could God exist eternally in some way which is completely impossible to measure or perceive by any scientific method whatsoever? Well, yes. How likely is it that that's the case? It either is the case or it isn't, I don't see how likelihood has much to do with it.

However, just because we can't make a foolproof argument for the non-existence of God doesn't mean that God serves any useful purpose. Obviously if God can exist forever then something else could also exist forever, for example matter and energy. If everything needs a creator, then so does God. Hence, positing God assumes that it is possible for something to exist eternally, hence making God unnecessary.

In addition, while I don't believe it makes sense to assign a probability to 'an eternal God beyond the scientific method' we can rule out all 'known' Gods on the basis of inconsistencies between holy scriptures and reality. The only God who's not unlikely or impossible is a very withdrawn God that sits back and does not in any way involve itself in the day-to-day runnings of the universe, and gives a shit about prayer. That God has no relevance to our present life, and since we have no way of knowing what might please this God into giving us afterlife there's no real sense in trying.

Hence, God is an unnecessary concept which has absolutely no application to our lives and discussions of the divine have no merit whatsoever. Even if God existed, its existence would be inconsequential to ours. That's what my 'weak' atheism means to me.

[Pat]

Pat, I don't understand what the curvature of space due to massive objects or the movement of objects has to do with time. I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that both can be explained by physics, wave forms and particle forms, which DO have a rate which changes according to physical laws.

Time passes at a different rate according to the curvature of space. The curvature is proportional to the presence of mass, so a massive object in a small volume (ie planet, star, compact neutron star or black hole) will see time pass slower the closer one gets to the object. You can measure this in vibrations of an atom (standard clock). Compare two identically behaving clocks at different distances from a massive object. The one farthest away counts more cycles than the one nearer. Time dilation.

This is a real effect. If they didnt account for it in satellites, for example, the error of GPS systems would be something of the order of a few km rather than 10s of or 100s of metres.

You are right in that "the universe doesnt care that it's 4:20 pm in Chicago" or wherever. But time is a tangible property/dimension that does behave differently at different points across the universe. It hasn't been codified  in physics as say, the charge of an electron or a description of what a photon is. But then the same could be said of mass ... we don't know where mass comes from, but we know it is something real. Time is much the same.   

[wayzey]

How is time a phisical law?

A rotation of the earth doesn't happen because time exists, time exists because of the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the sun.  Time cannot be a phisical law otherwise it would exist without humans.  When we take a step we can record the space we have travelled by simply looking at it, for time we have to use the knowledge of time that we have to find out, there is no way for someone who has no knowledge of time to be able to measure time.  We can measure space with our minds and without numerals, you cannot do this for time.  You can also do this for gravity even though it is much harder as the earth is consistant with a certain gravitation force so you would need to travel to another planet to be able to notice the difference but still you can work out that there is something pulling you down.

If you think about it, without us orbiting the sun and rotating there is no time.  If we all lived on venus then our years would go faster but our days slower.  If we lived on pluto noone would ever live for 1 plutonian year though we would have more days than we would on earth. (I know you would burn on venus and freze on venus but i'm talking about orbit and rotation of planets to ignore the temperatures and just imagine pluto and venus had the same environment and temperature as earth does)

It is extremely hard to realise this, if you can then you are either extremely clever or someone explained this to you extremely well.

When you think about time don't think about a second and actual measurments like that because you may say something happened 1000 years ago but then you are using measurments and it's like if I said something happened 100 metres back there, you are using measurments to aid you, 100 metres doesn't actually exist, the something that happened back there did though.  If you didn't have the measurment for space then you can say that something happened back there, you cannot do this for time as time is built by the numerals it is made up of, space is not made from numerals though, space is the universe itself.  If time was an actual phisical law then everything would be planned out for us, we would not be able to think as all lifeforms are unpredictable and it would mean we are not doing this right now, we would be like a movie, we would have everything planned out and we wouldn't have the option to think freely.

If you read this post and disagree, go for 1 day where everytime you have the option to do either the casual/normal thing you do that day or the unusual thing you would never do, take the unusual option then at the end of the day tell me if you feel any different.

You won't feel like anything is different you will probably believe that time has set that out to do but really when you were thinking about doing the usual or unusual thing that was you making the choice not time.

To believe in time you are believing in a higher being as if time determines everything then time itself must be determined as a movie does not just simply exist, it was made.

If you say that time is unpredictable and that we are changing over time and that time is pretty much from beginning to now then from now to future is unknown and what happens in that time is determined by space then you completely misunderstood by point as then you do not believe time is a physical law, that means time is not a physical law as the physical laws determine what happens in space and far as I can see time does not determine what is going to happen in space, space determines what will happen in time.

[Perillux]

A rotation of the earth doesn't happen because time exists, time exists because of the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the sun.  Time cannot be a phisical law otherwise it would exist without humans.  When we take a step we can record the space we have travelled by simply looking at it, for time we have to use the knowledge of time that we have to find out, there is no way for someone who has no knowledge of time to be able to measure time.  We can measure space with our minds and without numerals, you cannot do this for time.[/i]

It seems that YOU are the one who is looking at time from a "human" perspective.  Time can exist without humans because change still occurs without humans.
How do we measure speed wayzey?  It is IMPOSSIBLE to define speed without time, so time is physical.

Also, keep in mind that there is no universal time-frame, einstein showed this.

If you think about it, without us orbiting the sun and rotating there is no time.

You cannot orbit the sun without time, time allows us to orbit the sun, not the other way around.
Wayzey, I challenge you to give me a model of space that can account for change.  Time is the device we use to account for change.

If we all lived on venus then our years would go faster but our days slower.  If we lived on pluto noone would ever live for 1 plutonian year though we would have more days than we would on earth. (I know you would burn on venus and freze on venus but i'm talking about orbit and rotation of planets to ignore the temperatures and just imagine pluto and venus had the same environment and temperature as earth does)

Again, that is YOU looking at time as a human.  Days and Years are human concepts.
An exact definition of a second is: "9192631770 times the period of a radio wave emitted from a cesium-133 atom".  This is universal, doesn't matter what planet your on.

If time was an actual phisical law then everything would be planned out for us, we would not be able to think as all lifeforms are unpredictable and it would mean we are not doing this right now, we would be like a movie, we would have everything planned out and we wouldn't have the option to think freely.

We used to think this was the case.  That we could predict the entire future if we knew the exact position and momentum of every particle.  Now we know this is untrue (see: uncertainty principle).  We CANNOT know the exact location and momentum of any particle, just like with time.  So yes we have time as a physical law built around probability, therefore everything is not planned out.

To believe in time you are believing in a higher being as if time determines everything then time itself must be determined as a movie does not just simply exist, it was made.

already showed you that time does NOT determine everything (above).

If you say that time is unpredictable and that we are changing over time and that time is pretty much from beginning to now then from now to future is unknown and what happens in that time is determined by space then you completely misunderstood by point as then you do not believe time is a physical law

Physics has changed a LOT from what they teach you in school (below university level).  Half the stuff they teach you is outdated and just plain wrong.  We treat "particles" as wave and particle, we don't really know what this means but if you learn about the wavefunction you will see that things in the "past" act as particles because they are certain, and things in the "future" act as waves of probability.

[MAC]

Hello!


We are SO not able
to understand what's behind this universe,
-for now- we can only sail through...

By the other hand...

I believe the "creator" we know,
 was a necessity!
 
For people to be good?

NO!!!

It was a necessity to control people...
Slavery through Superstition!
There you go!, here you have
The creation of "our" creator,


Cleverly they twisted all this concepts of time and space,
giving to the common people only information
your wristwatch can handle...

I have the feeling their charade is going down!

People is waking up!