You can't see air, does that mean it doesn't exist?

[HellBound]

So, what is it that most Christians say?

Something like, "Just because you can't see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist"

Sometimes they even say, "You can't see air, does that mean it doesn't exist?"

Not only is this a bad comparison, its absurd to make this comparison.

We have scientific instruments that can measure air.

You can even learn how to make your own!

So Christians, what scientific instrument do you have to measure God?

[Mythra]

Their prayers!



...and the meter still reads 'Zero'

[HellBound]

Ah, Yes! Prayers!

They work so well!

[Occam]

You can compress and cool air to the point that it liquifies, and you can see it.  I'll believe in god when someone can put it in a compressor and lower its temperature enough so I can see some frozen god. 

[Mythra]

Ah, Yes! Prayers!

They work so well!

Haha, told ya!

[Pat]

You can compress and cool air to the point that it liquifies, and you can see it.  I'll believe in god when someone can put it in a compressor and lower its temperature enough so I can see some frozen god. 

I'll see your liquid air and raise you dry ice.

Incidentally, I think one theory is that Jupiter may have a solid Helium or Hydrogen core. I think that would require some pretty funky quantum theory to explain though, along the lines of superfluids on neutron stars.

[TheFluffyDuck]

if people use that air example its a failing o our education system and they are too far gone in "goo goo ga ga" land to be brought out of it.  So dont bother.  Sometimes help comes not from words of logic from another individual but by mistakes they will make.  Your not their last chance for help.  So its not worth geeting into a fuss over it.

[Cheeserino]

I was at a fair/festival deal with Christians there and I had some great fun.

Here's an example:
Old Christian guy: You know nobody has ever not sinned
Me: What about Jesus?


Anyways, a woman tried to use the "well you can't prove wind."  When I explained barometers and weather mains and evidence, she got quiet.

[HellBound]

Nothing says, "Hey, I've not really thought about the argument I'm using and I'm really just using it because I've heard someone else use it so I will too.", when they have no response to your rebuttal.

Anyway, great job being knowledgeable enough on barometers to refute a Christian apologist wannabe. +1

[Cheeserino]

My favorite part of that day is a guy seriously said that creation had just as much evidence as evolution, I simple said "such as?" and got nothing.


another way to dispel the wind argument:

[Theophage]

To be fair, many believers say they can feel the presence of God. Of course, some amputees say they can still feel the limbs that they lost, so I don't think feeling something necessarily means the thing is really there...

[rockstarwife628]

To be fair, many believers say they can feel the presence of God. Of course, some amputees say they can still feel the limbs that they lost, so I don't think feeling something necessarily means the thing is really there...

but there's a difference in something that doesn't and has never existed and something that once was. they say they can still feel the limbs that that they once actually had. that means that those limbs did once exist. so, to compare that, or to use that to prove that God doesn't exist doesn't make sense. because based off of the fact that these people can feel what they once had, who's to say that the faithful haven't actually had an experience with God to feel His presence?

[Theophage]

My point was simply that feeling X is there does not necessarily equate to the truth that X is there. Yeah, the phantom limb example has the nasty problem of the fact that the limb was once there; no analogy is perfect.

Do believers really experience God? Maybe. We cannot step into their subjective experience and do tests. But what we can do is examine the claims and use a bit of reason.

Suppose most of the humans on Earth are blind, only a few can see. Suppose further that the ones who can see claim that there is a large object in the sky which they like to call "the moon". Can we blind humans tell if what they are experiencing is actually there or not? How? I'll let this be an exercise for the readers, but the big hint is correlation and corroboration.

(and no, the experiences of believers do not show that God exists, just to clarify)

[gnannka]

but there's a difference in something that doesn't and has never existed and something that once was. they say they can still feel the limbs that that they once actually had. that means that those limbs did once exist. so, to compare that, or to use that to prove that God doesn't exist doesn't make sense. because based off of the fact that these people can feel what they once had, who's to say that the faithful haven't actually had an experience with God to feel His presence?

Try an exercise... Try making yourself hate something you like, or liking something you hate. You can train your mind to feel the way you want it to feel.

Not all feelings are based on reality. I often feel that my BF is mad at me, does it mean he is mad? Sometimes I feel like I'm gonna have a shitty day. If I reinforce myself with positive thoughts I will have a good day. If I reinforce myself w/ negative thoughts I will have a bad day.

Our emotions can make X situation look different. If I'm in a pissy mood and someone cuts me off I'm gonna think they were a stupid asshole who doesn't know how to drive. If I'm in a good mood I will thing dang they must be in a hurry; I hope they make it there on time. Did person X in that situation do anything different? No the only difference is my state of mind.

Work on this and one day you will be able to understand the god dellusion.

[MikeC2103]

Sometimes they even say, "You can't see air, does that mean it doesn't exist?"

Me: "Yea, but I can feel it." Then wave my arms about a bit to embarrass them.

Them: "But you can feel god too".

Me: "I only feel my emotions and they are caused by me".

Them: "Whatever, god loves you".

Me: *Brain Explodes*

[Cheeserino]

Just for another hole, I'd like to ask them how if we couldn't prove wind how flight works.

[SirCh]

Me: "Yea, but I can feel it." Then wave my arms about a bit to embarrass them.

Them: "But you can feel god too".

Me: "I only feel my emotions and they are caused by me".

Them: "Whatever, god loves you".

Me: *Brain Explodes*

You can "feel it" does carry the same meaning as what i'd use, but I'd still prefer to paraphrase that into "sense it".
This distinguishes it further from detection of your own emotions, which allows you to continue the argument with "Which of the 5 senses are you sensing god with? I'm sensing wind with touch."
What they're refering to by "sensing god" could be a reference to that they can see his creation, or that they "feel loved" (which i dont consider to be an accurately described feeling, you might be able to untangle the claim to show they actually refering to just feeling happy because they know they're loved, and what they know is only based on their beliefs so in essence is as valid is saying "its true because i think/say so") or they could physically sense something within them that is a consequence of their emotions. Feeling butterflies in your chest has logical explanations as emotions can alter your heart beat (ppl often feel if its beating really hard and fast) and also make some organs power up or power down by restricting arteries which you could probably feel too. Touch sense is refering to how you can feel if something is compressing cells, so the 'feeling butterflies' fits under the sense of touch.

[WeAllLeap]

Try an exercise... Try making yourself hate something you like, or liking something you hate. You can train your mind to feel the way you want it to feel.

Not all feelings are based on reality. I often feel that my BF is mad at me, does it mean he is mad? Sometimes I feel like I'm gonna have a shitty day. If I reinforce myself with positive thoughts I will have a good day. If I reinforce myself w/ negative thoughts I will have a bad day.

Our emotions can make X situation look different. If I'm in a pissy mood and someone cuts me off I'm gonna think they were a stupid asshole who doesn't know how to drive. If I'm in a good mood I will thing dang they must be in a hurry; I hope they make it there on time. Did person X in that situation do anything different? No the only difference is my state of mind.

Work on this and one day you will be able to understand the god dellusion.

This is so ridiculously condescending you should be embarrassed. First off, try as I might, I certainly can not make myself love something I hate and vice versa. Secondly, the being cut off thing is merely an example of emotional bias. What exactly does this have to do with someone's belief in God?

Most people who believe in God cite examples in their lives as evidence of "God's Work". These are compelling arguments for them. They may not appreciate science, or even think science proves anything. They may even think science proves the existence of God. There are scientists, the undisputed minority I will grant you, who are brilliant, have a very sophisticated grasp of science, yet believe in God. Your sill little thought experiment will prove nothing to them. And then you finish your ridiculous "point" by saying keep plugging away you'll get it someday. Many theists would express the same sentiment to you.

[gnannka]

This is so ridiculously condescending you should be embarrassed. First off, try as I might, I certainly can not make myself love something I hate and vice versa. Secondly, the being cut off thing is merely an example of emotional bias. What exactly does this have to do with someone's belief in God?

Most people who believe in God cite examples in their lives as evidence of "God's Work". These are compelling arguments for them. They may not appreciate science, or even think science proves anything. They may even think science proves the existence of God. There are scientists, the undisputed minority I will grant you, who are brilliant, have a very sophisticated grasp of science, yet believe in God. Your sill little thought experiment will prove nothing to them. And then you finish your ridiculous "point" by saying keep plugging away you'll get it someday. Many theists would express the same sentiment to you.

Embarrassed? LOL hardly. If anyone should be embarrassed by their posting habits it should be you. Maybe you lack the mental capacity to follow this exercise but I do not. Our brains are like sponges and are easily brainwashed. It's hardly ridiculous or condensing when some people make a living in psychology trying to retrain people's brain while others make their money manipulating people. If it wasn't possible to convince people of a lie we wouldn't have con men. People can be convinced of whatever the want. I convinced myself for 5 years that being w/ my baby daddy was the best option for me when deep down inside I knew he was ruining my life. It's not so hard to lie to yourself when the other options seem harder to deal with.

But any ways back on track my "sill little thought experiment" allows the person to see how easily they are manipulated and how easily they can manipulate their selves. If you can convince yourself that you love something you truly hate then obviously you are capable of convincing yourself you "feel" god. My point is that we can make ourselves feel whatever we want. Our brains are so complex that we don't even know we are doing this. Through hope, denial, and naiveness we are able to convince ourselves that these "feelings" are more than a manifestation of what we wanted to feel. ::inserting condescending comment:: I'll take that apology now

[HellBound]

This is so ridiculously condescending you should be embarrassed. First off, try as I might, I certainly can not make myself love something I hate and vice versa. Secondly, the being cut off thing is merely an example of emotional bias. What exactly does this have to do with someone's belief in God?

You can't make yourself love something you hate? How does this weakness in yourself make her comment condescending? Have you ever hated a person only to be best friends with them later? Ever hated a food and later started to like it? Ever played a video game you hated only to force yourself to play it longer and then you began to like it? How about all of the above vice versa? Yeah, I thought so too.

Gnannka was suggesting an exercise to help a person understand that you can force yourself to like or dislike anything. Regardless as to if you agree, this would relate to belief in a deity.

Before I de-converted, I forced myself to think God was good even though I knew logically he was wrong.

Most people who believe in God cite examples in their lives as evidence of "God's Work". These are compelling arguments for them. They may not appreciate science, or even think science proves anything. They may even think science proves the existence of God. There are scientists, the undisputed minority I will grant you, who are brilliant, have a very sophisticated grasp of science, yet believe in God. Your sill little thought experiment will prove nothing to them. And then you finish your ridiculous "point" by saying keep plugging away you'll get it someday. Many theists would express the same sentiment to you

I think you, a) either missed the point, or b) were just trying to be seen and look intelligent by "shooting" down an atheist/agnostic member, or c) some combination between the two.

Most likely C. I'm not trying to insult you but I don't think you thought your comment through very well before you posted it.